BBS in a Box 2/BBS in a box - Trilogy II.iso/Files/Education/H/Irish/lessons/mail

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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 20:06:27 MST
From: Dan Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Elem-IG: Files at YEATS
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Dia dhuit, mo chairde...

I have just uploaded to YEATS.CSUFRESNO.EDU a copy of Michael Rhodes'
Prodigal Son (Reading 1) that I converted to .GLC format for viewing
with GLCREAD. I used the side-by-side format with the Gaelic on the
left and English on the right. When viwing with GLCREAD, the Gaelic
screen fonts are shown on the left and Roman on the right for the
English. Comments will be appreciated.

Thanks to Michael for the reading and permission to convert.

Slán leat,
Dónall

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Dan Wilson * Arizona State Univ West Campus * 4701 W. Thunderbird Rd. *
Phoenix, AZ 85060 * Voice: [phone]  * InterNet: [e-mail]
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Subject: Elem IG:  Pronunciation comment and question
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        I'd like to offer a couple of comments on pronunciation and spelling
in Irish Gaelic and my attempts to explain it to others.  Then I have a ques-
tion for the fluent people.

        I've often shown Gaelic words or phrases (seanfhocail) to friends and
then spoken (as well as I can) these phrases.  Inevitably I get back a reaction
such as, "How on earth do you get that pronunciation out of those letters?"  In
attempting to answer this I try to point out the person's basic and incorrect
assumption.  This is difficult because this assumption is something we all had
drilled into our heads through elementary school "phonics" instruction, namely,
we were taught to look at letters on the page and then pronounce them.  I try to
point out to people that this process is totally backwards.  Written words and
letters are not pronounced.  Instead sounds are written.  Usually this doesn't
make much sense to people at first; they don't understand the difference.  So
I ask the question, "Which came first, the spoken or written language?"  Not
only did the spoken language come first historically, but it still comes first.
New words and new pronunciations of old words are much more likely to appear in
spoken language before they appear on the written page.

        If I can back people off from their tacit assumptions, then I can
explain to them that Irish is simply a different language from English and
there's no reason why it should have the same rules for transcribing sounds to
the page.  First and foremost Irish has virtually a whole different set of
sounds to work with.  Moreover in every language there are infinitely (more or
less) more sounds than there are letters in any possible alphabet.  So any
phonetic writing is after all only an approximation to the spoken language.
One could go off into a discussion of variations in pronunciation from region to
region and even person to person (we can recognize individual voices because
everyone utters differnet sounds) and how far apart must, for instance , dia-
lects get before we should spell the words differently on the page, but I'll
leave that for others more knowledgeable than me.

        At any rate I think it helps beginners if they can step back from their
English-implanted rules about the relation between written and spoken language
and if possible start with a clean slate to learn those rules for Irish.

        Now I have a question regarding those rules.  In the case of words,
especially one-syllable words, in which there is both a slender and a broad
vowel, both short, in a syllable, is there a rule that indicates which one
represents the spoken sound and which one is there simply to indicate that its
neighboring consonant is either broad of slender?  Let me give a few examples.
The word, bean (woman), is pronounced [b'an].  How can I know without being told
that it's not pronounced [b'en]?  Others:

                right   ceart   [k'art];  why not [k'ert]?
                man     fear    [f'ar];   why not [f'er]?
                grey    liath   [li:@h];  why not [l'ih] or [l'ah]?
                wet     fliuch  [fl'ux];  why not [fl'ix]?
                away    amuigh  is it [@mu] or [@mi] or something else?

It would help beginners if we could have a guide for these situations.  Or shall
we just resign ourselves to memorization?

        Thanks to anyone who can help.

                                                        Michael Collier
                                                        [e-mail]


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Elem IG:  Comments on Gaelic thinking and "ag"
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        In Elem IG Lesson 5-A, Dorothy introduced the following:


C.  TO HAVE

    There is no verb "to have" in Irish.  Instead, to express this
    idea, we use :
                     Tá  + ag + noun (or pronoun)

         e.g.  Mary has a pen.   Tá peann ag Máire.
               He had a car.     Bhí carr aige.




        I'd like to use this example as a springboard for opening up the subject
of thinking in Irish Gaelic.  This is after all the  ultimate goal in learning a
language, not just being able to translate.  I think beginners would benefit
from an early discussion of this subject in getting a  handle on the language,
especially for understanding native speakers and writers.

        I have often thought that if I were to teach beginning Irish Gaelic that
it might be best not to even mention the actual language until a couple of
lessons into the course.  Instead it might be a good idea to prepare the student
to think in quite a different way about how people and the rest of the world
relate to one another.  I believe that this is what is happening in the diff-
erence in grammatical structures between Irish and English.  English emphasizes
the use of verbs, especially in the active voice, in the subject-verb-object
format.  But Irish makes strong use of prepositions, even to the point of "re-
placing" verbs with prepostions.  (I put "replacing" in quotes precisely
because I don't want to think of Irish as being a mere translation of or alter-
ation from English, but I didn't how better to express the idea.)

        Consider the example above.  The English language has several verbs to
expressed its concept of possession:  I have, I own, I possess.  I think that a
relevent question is, what image do English speakers get when they use these
expressions and think about possessing something.  This form of a grammatical
subject carrying out an action on a grammatical direct object invokes in me the
image of the subject having all the power of choice and of the object being
"subjected", to being had.

        Now consider the Gaelic form, tá peann ag Máire.  What is the image
here?  I  get the image of two things, peann agus Máire, which just happen to
be in the same location, almost as if both had the power of choice.  I would
push this thought so far as to say that there simply is no possession in Gaelic,
in the English sense.  Do others, especially native speakers, have this sort of
image?  What about Gaelic speakers of past times, before the strong intrusion of
English into every corner of Gaeltacht life?  Can anyone speculate about the
thoughts of earlier Gaelic speakers?

        From this example I will expand to a general comment on my perceptions
of thinking in Gaelic.  It seems to me that, whereas English emphasizes an
action of a doer acting on a person or thing "done to", Gaelic emphasizes a more
or less static picture of two or more persons or things and a relationship
between them.  This seems more egalitarian and implies no control of one by
another.  Could this be extended to a concept that such control or attempt at it
would be unnatural?   I'll stop before this gets to be too "New Agey".  What
are others thought and feeling on this topic?  Can such an attempt to change a
way of thinking help beginners learn the language?

        More to the prepositional point, prepositions are a major reason why I'm
still a beginner. (There are others, such as never having enough time to study.)
The one word definitions offered by learning texts just fail the learner when
attempting to read literature written in Gaelic.  This is of course generally
true of all words, but seems both worse and more important for prepositions.  So
I would like to see a good discussion of the range of meanings and uses of prep-
ositions and if possible a basic image or root meaning of the preposition out of
which the various uses grow.  I hope that I'm not making a bigger problem for
myself and beginners in general than actually exists.  I hope other intermedi-
ate beginners will comment on whether this makes any sense to them.

        A final note.  I'm sensitive to Marion's comment that Gaelic-L is in-
tended for communication in the Gaelic languages.  I would also hate to see
Gaelic-L degenerate into merely discussions in English about Gaelic.  Ach mo
bhrón, nil mé ábalta a suigh síos agus a scríobh teachtaireacht mar ceann
seo anois.  Tá súil agam go beidh mé ábalta i bhfad na haimsire.  Gabh mo
leithscéal, le do thoil, ag an am seo.

                                                Slán anois,
                                                Michael Collier
                                                [e-mail]


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A Mhichíl,

Is fíor-shuimiúil an méid atá á rá agat anseo.
An peann seo atá ag Maire, an é go bhfuil sé aici ar chíos?
An mbéadh briathar againn a thaispeánfadh "possession" dá mba rud go
bheadh "fixity of tenure" ag an gcailín úd, gan trácht a dhéanamh ar
"fair rent" agus "free trade" ?

I ndáiríre, aontaíom leat - tá coinceapanna nach féidir a aistriú
ó theanga go teanga.  Ach ní mór an cabhair é seo don foghlaimeoir
agus é ag lorg comhairle agus cabhair.

Ní foláir dúinn (tá súil agam go bhfuilim fhéinigh fós ag foghlaim)
tosnú ag smaoineamh sa teanga.  Is cuma má úsáidimíd roinnt focail
Béarla fhad atá rithim na Gaeilge againn.  (D'fhéadfaimís roinnt mhaith
a fhoghlaim ón Vearsaíocht Macaronic).  Is minic a  bhímse fhéinigh ag
iarraidh a thaispeáint gur féidir liom teachtaireacht iomlán a scríobh
gan úsáid a bhaint as focail Bhéarla, ná foclóir ach an oiread.  Ach
go bunúsach ba chóir dom a bheith ag tosnú le smaointe Gaeilge agus le
construction sa Ghaeilge, agus má tá Béarla fagtha sna constructions
seo atá agam bíodh sin mar atá - is abairtí anois iad agus má tá
siad so-thuigthe beidh mé "heapaí".

<< It seems to me that, whereas English emphasizes an
action of a doer acting on a person or thing "done to", Gaelic emphasizes a more
or less static picture of two or more persons or things and a relationship
between them.  >>

Is mór an trua é nár scríobh Chekov i nGaeilge - pictiúirí deasa agus
an-chuid daoine ar an stáitse agus iad go léir ag caint is ag smaoineamh
ós ard anonn is anall, ach cá bhfuil na  doers ?

Tom K.

# Tom Killalea, Trinity College  <[e-mail]>  ...as it ever was...


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 11:48:04 GMT
From: Marion GUNN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Elem IG:  Comments on Gaelic thinking and "ag"
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On Thu, 18 Jun 92 09:25:00 GMT <[e-mail]> said:
>...
>Ní foláir dúinn (tá súil agam go bhfuilim fhéinigh fós ag foghlaim)
>tosnú ag smaoineamh sa teanga.  Is cuma má úsáidimíd roinnt focail
>Béarla fhad atá rithim na Gaeilge againn.  (D'fhéadfaimís roinnt mhaith
>a fhoghlaim ón Vearsaíocht Macaronic).  Is minic a  bhímse fhéinigh ag
>...

M'anam gur fíor duit, a Thomáis. Féach an sampla sin d'fhilíocht
Dhonncha Rua, a bhí ag Raghnall inniu. Is mór idir na smaointe a
nocht DR as Béarla, agus na smaointe a nocht sé as Gaeilge! :-)
Ní dochar ar bith tcht a chur ar aghaidh as Gaeilge, agus an
corrfhocal Béarla tríd, agus duine ag iarraidh rithimí na
teanga a fhoghlaim. Mar a deir tú féin:
   >seo atá agam bíodh sin mar atá - is abairtí anois iad agus má tá
   >siad so-thuigthe beidh mé "heapaí".
Marion


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Cupla ceartúchán:
  l.2:  Tá sé fuar nó tá fuacht ann (fuacht is a noun, so can't follow
                tá sé ____)
        Is mac léinn mé.  (cf. ceacht 12)
  l.6:  daoine deasa (cf. ceacht 7)
  l. 7: ar bhord (ar lenites, ceacht 17)
        Tá go leor......ann; níl......ann.
Nancy Stenson